@Reanimagpie

If the site is willing to charge premium currency for these things, people are well within their right to judge it, and I don't believe anything suggested has been unfair. It would be to benefit the longevity of the site. It's fair to critique what we are presented with, that's how the site can improve.

With a lack of communication and monetization in most corners of gameplay, players will likely leave, which will still end up with the site making less money. I put a lot of money into the KS, I want to help LW succeed financially- but if I feel I'm being coerced into spending premium currency (real money) for everything and there's no information about what is being planned or changed, or if people's concerns are being heard, I will not want to spend more. Which is a problem!

And premium currency was available in beta, we just got it added back to our LW account funds on launch, expansions costing MS was a change that was made silently at launch.

i really don't want to dismiss your complaints but just under 50k is utter chump change for game dev. Especially game dev with hosting costs on top of everything else. [the 3k initial goal they set has me a little worried honestly but presumably the 50k let them increase scope or they planned to take a loan for the rest?]

even split between just two devs that's not even a year of being able to develop full time and not pick up a second job. Maybe as little as half a year depending on how expensive rent is in a given area [unless they live together but i don't think they do]

and considering there's now quiche [which! i don't know if quiche is paid to be fair, but considering quiche is up with the other two, probably] whatever the site does make is probably spread Very Thin because doubt much of the ks money is left by now

i'm not trying to said those aren't valid concerns, but people Need to temper their expectations for the speed of certain changes because they might not be able to afford to make a lot of content that doesn't make them money right now

I agree with aspects of all sides of this issue.

I've been around at more than one site launch and what's happening right now is something I've seen before. People do have to spend money to get more premium currency into circulation and while the game economy is new, it's going to be a little hard. Time will remedy this gradually. LW's system of what costs premium currency and what does not wouldn't be an issue in a mature game with lots of premium currency in circulation.

While I understand this, I do think that LW has made a few key errors in determining what should cost premium currency at a game's launch. Profession upgrades are directly related to gameplay and should cost Pebbles (and it's okay if it's expensive). Den slots costing pebbles is good, but the first few tabs should cost Pebbles as well. Tabs are a basic organization that most players will utilize. The first few should cost Pebbles but it's okay if it switches over to MS after 5 or so.

Everything else that costs MS on OP's list is fine to me but I'd like to see the list of things we can use Pebbles on be just as long and exciting in comparison. Not many players are selling any of their stuff (wolves and CA) for Pebbles because they don't really need Pebbles. However, time and steady content updates will remedy this too.

All these things considered, I think it's way too early to feel doom and gloom about it. I also just want to state agreement with one of Reanimagpie's points above, that $50k isn't much for making a game. More time and, yes, more money need to be put into this game to see its longevity. I have faith in staff and in the game. Give it time, keep giving feedback like this, and if things aren't getting better in a few months, then we have a serious problem.

There's a lot of stuff in here. I didn't read every single post in-depth but I did read the ones about custom apparel being the main source of apparel on the website which is definitely something I have a problem with. I came here to suggest having a Custom Apparel Token that operated in pebbles (think, like, 2 million pebbles for a token and the apparel could only be sold for pebbles). I feel like this is a necessity for Lorwolf considering how coveted customization is in ANY game where you aren't a predefined character.

Think of it this way: people have the same exact viewpoints of Flight Rising and Pixel Cat's End. “It's a dragon/cat dress-up game." People had the same complaint about PCE when they first joined and couldn't make very notes immediately because they wanted clothing (and when they did get clothing from Adventuring, they used it; there were SO many newbies with scars and wooden armor running around for a few weeks). FR has a vast catalog of apparel that the “breeding game” they advertised has pretty much morphed into a dragon sandbox game at this point with how many options there are to make the picture you want.

People can play both of these games easily because there are alternatives. FR has so much apparel now and PCE's currency is not used for game progression, so it's basically only used for player-trades, and lots of people sell their clothing. Yes, you can counter with “FR has been around for a decade” but FR doesn't have a custom apparel system, which means new apparel is and has always been entirely on their team. Even back when the site launched, without a large art team, the expectation seemed to be that there would be tons of apparel, especially with the monthly festivals releasing at least one new piece.

I also hate the constant comparisons to other games because if I wanted to play those games I'd just play them, but since the team's money was brought up I'd also like to say…if the devs are having a financial hardship right now, they should at least tell players that. Alaunis quit her job during development to work on Lorwolf full-time. As far as I can tell JimJim is still working his day job, so effectively they're a one-income household right now, and in the United States that is a huge change, especially since Lorwolf as a new game is going to eat up so much money before it even goes into the developers' pockets. There are many developers who work on their games as a side-hobby or hustle (including FR developers). This does allow them to sustain the game since they don't need to be using the money they get to put food on the table. But we don't know what's going on in their personal lives, so it's just speculation. It personally doesn't surprise me that upgrades cost moonstones even though they were pebbles in EA/Beta (I mean…it makes sense. How else will you stress-test the upgrades?) but the fact this was never outwardly communicated and STILL hasn't been commented on despite everyone asking for one post is the real issue.

Kind of a ramble now…but my two main points are this: just be honest with your players, they will understand if you foster a good relationship with them and you gotta make apparel more accessible to the casual F2P players or you will lose them. Honestly I find the gameplay loop of Lorwolf so unsatisfying because there's nothing to work towards. I can't dress my dogs so it's just kind of…boring right now. I've already reduced my play-time so drastically because of the dissatisfaction I get doing my activities since I'm not earning anything. There's nothing to earn.

In support of OP- not even trying to compare it to Flight Rising past this paragraph since, uh, dragons and wolves are… different animals? Not to mention FR minigames and LW professions being nothing alike! Pretty silly to say that the games are exactly the same when no, they aren't, it's just the genre. You know Dragon Age and Mass Effect aren't the same RPG; you know Mass Effect is not Halo, and Halo is not Call of Duty, as shooters go. Having said that, there is a LOT that even this early on, Lorwolf is leaps ahead of FR's interface (and I've been playing it for just over EIGHT YEARS!) but… the economy isn't one of them.

I know that it will get better over time, but I've also been part of games where the fanbase didn't raise enough concern early on, and then the game got worse and worse, and people who couldnt afford it left, and… you get the picture. The fact that people are so outspoken about this (currently, extremely broken) economy system makes me feel Less “doom and gloom” about it, because I've already seen the dev team trying to bridge gaps. This is a Good Thing. The devs, human as the rest of us, are NOT beholden to change Everything, but it is good that people feel like IF they say something, they will be heard in the future of a game they want to support because it isn't a copy/paste of another random pet game.

Plus, for me, even WITH hoard-selling and grinding (and even buying the beginner bundle thanks to a giftcard) I barely had enough to re-gene up my progens, let alone the plans I have for what wolves I found for super cheap. It isn't greedy to think that basic elements of gameplay (ie, professions/tabs) should at least have the option for Moonstone/Pebble expansion, when it's how most pet games with real longevity function. As someone who wasn't privileged enough to be in early access, since I heard this game existed literally the day after it came out of beta? It feels mighty unfair to realize that the EA players had a perfectly functional system that the devs oddly changed (by all accounts) with no actual warning they would be doing so.

I hope the devs take these criticisms to heart, because this is a game I want to be supporting for 8+ years. I literally, fiscally can't if the only way to do so remains “buy more moonstones lol” like I've seen people in Other threads say. I just want to be able to fully endorse Lorwolf without the caveat “Yeah it takes a while to get establised, especially if you don't wanna spend like $50 for the premium currency to last more than purchasing 1 breed change/ a gene or two.”

Gonna end this rant with a reiteration: The devs are good people, and they deserve recognition and compensation for doing what they do. I love this game. I love wolves and all canines very dearly, I love being able to make them crazy bright colors OR look realistic if I want to! I love giving them silly little piercings and robes. This is a game I want to play for a long time, and I bet I will even if the economy doesn't look up for months. I just hope things even out a bit after a couple updates, even.

@/Reanimagpie

once again, just switching out a few values would already be a big step in the right direction, this is so simple it hurts. 0 people are expecting a ton of f2p apparel overnight. this is bottom of the barrel bare minimum stuff, i have seen no unrealistic expectations from suggestions regarding the site economy.

i don't know how much it costs for a couple of people to start a site like this, few people do. but not having a big professional team actually eliminates a lot of those costs, even though it means a high workload; especially since even DURING the beta, they were receiving income. but only the devs know the details of their financial situation. all we can do is speculate.

all i ask in regards to apparel is for them to shift their focus onto official apparel more, because that is a huge part of the site as determined by the players.

to be crystal clear, i have no qualms comparing LW to FR because afaik FR pioneered this subgenre of pet sites. it's like calling a game a roguelike. BUT as i stated before, LW is distinct from FR in many ways & i find it easier to stick with. i love WW hunting & the arena. all comparisons being made are for the sake of driving home the point that the formula for managing the economy of the kind of game LW is is right there.

please don't mistake my mentioning of a much older site as making unfair comparison or anything along those lines!

@Reanimagpie

I just wanted to mention that I've heard that the expansions did, at the very beginning of EA, cost moonstones. Then, after quite a few complaints, it was changed to pebbles. But, with the actual launch, it was switched back with zero explanation. So, the expansions costing pebbles during EA wasn't due to the devs not wanting to ask for money from the players with a beta reset on the horizon; they had already been doing that.

Now, I completely understand the insane costs that come with game development! It is expensive, especially if you have other employees on payroll. But, there has to be a balance when it comes to premium currency. You can try and squeeze more money out early, but you ruin things in the long-term by driving other players away. Personally, I'm very frugal about my spending when it comes to pet sites, but I have spent money on them before when I feel like my investment will be worthwhile. Right now? I don't feel like I have any reason to spend real money on Lorwolf, especially when it feels like the game mechanics are trying to manipulate money out of me. The last time I spent money on a pet site, it was on a pet site that didn't feel as though the premium currency was necessary; it was a shortcut, but it wasn't the only path to getting what you wanted. And that feeling had fostered a pretty stable conversion economy that kept premium currency fairly achievable for f2p players that were willing to grind up the regular currency.

Pretty much what coelacanis said. The issues do exist and it helps to point them out, but this is not yet the time to be so alarmist about it as yes, in my experience too a lot of early life of indie petsites resembles this quite closely (if usually Much more messy in execution and to Much less outrage)

I just strongly dislike how hostile and alarmist people have been with their feedback for frankly very typical early site issues and I've seen this player behavior Nowhere Else around the early life of a site even over the same exact things.

+barely concealed hostility I've been seeing a lot of is just not a helpful way to present and categorize feedback even all feelings aside and the thinly veiled accusations of greed and being untruthful people have been throwing around so freely are taking up space legitimate feedback could occupy instead

(Also Please do not ping me further in this thread this has gotten very tiring very fast and I would like to play my wolf game in peace. Pretty much see coelacanis's reply for how I feel about the whole thing)

I agree with the notion that core gameplay features like profession expansions and (some subset of) den tabs should cost pebbles, even if it's a very large cost in pebbles. That will drive ms purchases on its own, as people interested in shortcutting to 50 profession slots or 10 den tabs will buy ms to convert to pebbles rather than try to earn 20mil pebbles outright. LW made the very good decision of putting currency sales directly in the player marketplace, so it's basically brainlessly easy to trade the two currencies and you can absolutely p2w your way to massive amounts of pebbles if you need them.

I also like the notion of encouraging custom apparel sales for pebbles, and I don't think it's a bad thing that devs are going to focus less on site apparel in favor of letting players go wild in the apparel realm.

I do not have any particular doom & gloom about the lack of these features to contribute, however. I think waiting to see how LW shakes out with its set of unique features is wiser than forecasting its Inevitable Doom because it's not exactly like FR.

@Reanimagpie Where did you get the idea a site like LW is super expensive to host? Hosting websites has never been cheaper. With the various cloud services and tech we have today, it could be as cheap as 50$/month. Realistically, I don't know exactly how it costs for LW. But to give you an idea, I run on the same cloud service as LW a company with a way bigger computation need for 10k$/year.